Ask Pierre

Katana Related Questions answered by Pierre…

I think that in many ways Nihonto evokes certain emotions in people. There is always an answer why people like them. Some people adore them for the fine pieces of art that they are. Other people have very strong sentiments regarding Nihonto, and have a special meaning why they love it, or what it does to them. My question is really a dubble question:

What does it do to you when you help create a blade, and when does your feeling tell you when something is in your eyes a good piece?

This is a very interesting question. Actually, Kawachi Kunihira’s book, The Art of the Japanese Sword, starts with this sentence: “When you look at a japanese sword, what do you feel?”   It is exactly the same thing. The swords are always the same, but each viewer will have a different reaction. Some people find them scary, others cool, others yet powerful, some people think of discipline, the way of the warrior in life, others yet think of killing and cutting people down, others see pure art.

I cannot really pretend that I help create a blade. The work that I do on some swords is purely technical and all the aspects that actually influence the quality of the blade are done by the (my) master. Imagine a chef, and he needs to make a great sauce. He might ask you to cut carrots and another guy to pour water (and these guys will become very good at cutting carrots and pouring water, among other things all necessary to make a sauce), but only the chef will make the sauce. When the apprentices become chefs, they make their own sauce!

As for my feeling… hmm veeeeery tough question! I am so intimate with swords that my feeling is complex and always changing. If I stick to your question, that is, what I feel when I see a really good sword, well I can say it is something etheral, like the sword was not made my a human. Perfection in anything always inspires this feeling, I think. I want to produce this kind of work, but maybe I never will!
The more I advance, the more picky I become. Less than divine perfection is not enough. I enjoy every sword, though, but my observation becomes more rethoric, less emotional. Swords that really move me, I always feel that I want to meet the guy who made it!

What would be a simple coposition to make the hardening clay and what type of commercial steel is better to try to forge our “first sword” (or folded knife or some just for starters)?

The first part of the question : 3 parts clay, 2 parts pulverized polishing stone, one part charcoal.

Hmm.. I don’t know western steels at all! If you can find them, Hitachi Materials’ Yasuki steels are the best (those commonly called “white paper” and “blue paper” and “yellow paper”). If you can find some Yasuki white #2, it’s a very very good cutlery steel. Otherwise, you can shop for Sweden steels, they have been famous for a long time.

But you know what? They are still expensive. Steel is expensive. There are so many old steels lying every where, please recycle and practice! Your best bet is to find old files and work from there. Many people make great knives from files. Go to flea markets and buy old rusty files for cheap!

In any case I suggest you start working with carbon steels. Forget alloys or stainless for now.

What is the real purpose of the habaki and why is it such an important part of the blade. How about the placement of the mune and  ha machi. I see lot of swords where they don’t line up, is that a normal thing ?

That is a very important question. The habaki is indeed critical. Well, a very simple and practical answer is: What happens if you remove the habaki and put the sword in its scabbard? The sword will not hold! The habaki’s purpose is to keep the blade secure in the scabbard, that’s it! That’s why it’s tapered: it wedges against the four carved out corners inside the scabbard.

Otherwise, there are many types of habaki and many approaches to their use. Most traditional swords have their machi in line, but it is true that I have see some swords with the ha-machi a bit higher. I  don’t know exactly why, but I feel it might be to allow to fit a cheaper habaki    It’s easier to fit the habaki if it doesn’t have to wrap around the edge, so maybe only cheaper swords have their machi not in line?!
I will ask around!

How important is a Japanese Sword’s weight & balance ?

How important is balance and weight in the manufacture of a sword to a contemporary japanese swordsmith ?

Obviously a fine sword has a fine feeling in hand. Some swords are made only for their look, and feel terrible in the hand. It’s up to each swordsmith to put more or less consideration into the actual practicality of a sword. Of course, there were many fencing styles and schools of sword making over the past 1000 years, and not all swords were fine tools either! As for myself, I’m hoping to make fine fencing tools as well as fine works of art, all in the same sword. Bear with me!

In order to be allowed to make swords in Japan, you need a licence. But how can you learn how to make a proper sword and pass your test if you are not allowed to make any during your apprenticeship ?!

You work on your master’s swords! That’s why it’s important to have a great master, and a proper training situation. Your master will be making swords, and then he will delegate work to you. He will ask you to actually make that or this part of the sword. That means he trusts you enough, and that trust has to be built. Because there is no such things as practice: we’re always working for real, from the start. We never “just practice”. Not much room for mistakes. I often hear of apprentices making terrible mistakes, and wrecking swords that were almost finished. It’s very scary. One way we practice, though, is by making our own tools, but we make them for real too!

You’ve got to be learning all the time. Your teacher will do something many times in front of you, and then once he will just say “do it!” and you have to do it well and perfect right there, or you just lost your chance to step up. This is stressful, but it’s very good to keep the standards and learning attitude very finely tuned. I once heard that traditionally, potters in Japan would train their son by making him stand in front the throwing wheel for hours while their father was working. At some point, when the father would say “do it!” after many weeks or months, the son would just know what do to.

I experienced that myself many times. I watched my master work for so long, by cutting charcoal next to him or assisting him directly, that I know intuitively what to do. The other day I surprised myself again, because I had to do something I had never done, and I couldn’t remember how to do it at all. But when I sat at the forge, my hands knew what to do! I knew every step and I just did it. It was a proof that japanese apprenticeship is the best way to learn. You don’t need to fill your brain with theories and explanations. Just observe very attentively a competent craftsman, and then do it. Observe again, and do it again. No need to talk, no need to explain.

How is it to be a Japanese Swordsmith Apprentice ?

What do you do for a living while apprenticing? I have heard of apprentices living with their masters in a sort of barracks-style life.

Traditionally, apprentices lived with their master’s family, being part of the family. That meant they also participated in daily chores. Newcomers would help the wife cook and clean around. Not much forging for the first year. Nowadays there are many different situation, including the classical one, because japanese swordsmiths are not rich, and cannot always take charge of additional family members.

In my case, for the first three years of my apprenticeship, I was teaching English on week-ends, and visited my master daily on weekdays. That meant no day off for a year or so, and then only Sundays. From the fourth year, however, I’m lucky enough to have a mixture of much support from my wife, and then a tiny bit of English teaching (a couple of hours per month) and some side business (I act as a broker for western sword owners who want to purchase a sword, or get one restored or appraised).

I also spent three weeks at my master’s own master, the traditional way. Like my master used to say, the only free time you have is on the toilet and in the bath! Otherwise, every minute is controlled and directed by your master, and there’s no procrastinating around. From 5h25 in the morning to 23h00 at night, it was work, with a total of 1h40m for three meals and one tea break. It’s good to develop one’s skills. It’s very bad for one’s social skills

I read that you didn’t practice any fencing martial art. How can you know or understand the requirements of certain practitioners who use a katana?

When you seriously get into making something, very often you understand more than those who use it. I’m sure that F1 engineers understand what happens during a race than the pilots. The pilots are more intuitive, and they have experience. The engineers understand problems of gravity, g-force, rubber against pavement friction, engine combustion, engine power transfered to wheels, direction, aerodynamics, etc.. A fine swordsmith understands very well what a fine sword should be. We get so intimate with each blade we know them by heart.

For example, we understand how well a sword can cut, without actually cutting something, by feeling the nature (hardness, brittleness, “tightness”, etc) of the steel when we forge it, by feeling its reaction when we quench it, and by feeling its nature while shaping it with drawknives, files and polishing stones. Moreover, when a polisher works on a sword, he understands just as much how good the sword is.

Cutting power is just, after all, determined by blade geometry and the hardness-toughness of a steel.

And yes, it works: we agree with sword users and they agree with us!

This being said, I practiced Aikido – will practice again when I get near a dojo again! – and I practice kenjutsu katas with a bokken sometimes. It doesn’t have much to do with my work, it’s just to keep me in shape

Why did you choose to become a smith rather than a polisher or fittings maker ?

It’s really the environment of the swordsmith that reached me. Working in the forge, by the live fire, pumping the bellows, shaping steel into such beauty and elegance.. I can’t get enough! Beside, it’s the one main element of creation: all other trades revolve around swords, but we swordsmiths make the swords. It’s a little bit like comparing the trade of a painter with a frame maker and an oil paint manufacturer..

They’re all equally important, but they all revolve around the painter. I’m not saying I want the world to revolve around me (actually it’s the opposite, if I had a choice), but the swordsmith is the creator and creating is my breathing. I need it to live. So it’s the freedom to create and the context of work.

A special trade is polishing, though. I have infinite respect for the polisher’s work. It’s tedious and very very very difficult! People who think they can polish without training are usually very wrong. It’s infinitely complex, and without the polisher’s work the swordsmith’s work would be invisible. I could never do it myself, though!

Pierre , a Japanese Swordsmith Apprentice in Japan

Hi everyone!

I would like to thank you for your interest in my little adventure, and thank you for your questions. Such questions are the best way to understand myself, really, because I have to think about aspects of my life that I usually just live without much consideration. I enjoy the game and hope the answers are satisfying for you.

What first interested you in becoming an apprentice?

What really motivated me in becoming a swordsmith apprentice in Japan was the prospect of developping skills that allowed me to play at “that” level. This is something I yet have to attain, but there is no doubt that the rigor and devotion the Japanese put in their work in general allows for a certain degree of accomplishment that in the West is often isolated to hardworking individuals.

In the West, we tend to get satisfied with less; and, I must add, this reflects in a much better quality of life in general! The Japanese are terrible at enjoying their lives, they’re working machines. Japanese pay attention to detail and are always proud to do their best, and this reflects in every aspect of their culture.

On top of that, the very intuitive approach of the Japanese to craftsmanship was also very appealing to me. I often get questions regarding technical aspects of my work (there’s one down here!) and I just can’t answer, because we do everything by “nose” and by experience, by intuition. Of course, I believe in the scientific method and in a more in-depth analytical approach (and am using them too), but what the Japanese taught me is that the only genuine teacher is Experience. One truly learns only by doing it.

How long have you dealt with nihonto/swordmaking?

I entered apprenticeship in early 2006. This is therefore my fourth year as an apprentice. Although I had a vague, typical young boy interest in swords and martial arts my whole life, until I actually entered apprenticeship I had never ever studied the nihonto or anything related to sword making.

I remember once, when I had just entered apprenticeship, someone mentioned to me Masamune (the most famous name in sword history, a smith who would have lived in the 13th century), and I just asked where he lived, and if I could meet him! I knew nothing at all regarding anything japanese sword, and much later I realized this had helped me be accepted within the world of swords.

As for the making, I have been working with my hands all my life (woodworking, home renovation, potery) so feel very comfortable making stuff and getting dirty, but I had never ever got anywhere close a smithy.

In Japan, an apprentice will be accepted or refused in a traditional craft without regards for his background or experience. The apprentice is to come and learn, he therefore doesn’t need to know! On the contrary, knowing is sometimes seen as a disadvantage, for one will already have habits and concepts, some of them maybe in the way of performing well, or at least in the way of “doing in Rome as the Romans”.

What is important is the apprentice’s attitude and commitment. Japanese don’t care about natural talents, they see it as a weakness sometimes, because he who is naturaly good tends to make less efforts than he who is poor with his hands. They consider that anyone who puts the right amount of effort will get there sometimes. Of course, the best of the best is he who has natural talent and puts in an infinite amount of efforts.

I like that very much. No one can’t say they can’t do it because they have no talent of anything. It’s just a matter of keeping the focus steady for as long as required, and then one gets there, no mistake.

Out of which characters does your Mei consist?

I don’t have a mei! I’m an apprentice. My mei will be given to me upon becoming independent, usually by my master, and usually containing one of his character, in this case either Miyairi Yukihira’s “hira” that was passed down to us, or Kawachi Kunihira’s “kuni”, depending on how things go in the coming years (stay tuned!).

Was it difficult to get accepted as an apprentice being a westerner?

It has nothing to do with race, sex, or any other factor. It has to do with what I mentioned before, and because I was never pushy, and never in a rush (from the moment I discovered swordsmithing, four years elapsed before I entered apprenticeship, if you can wait that long, you’ll be accepted).

Because I simply firt with the craftsmen, visiting some of them regularly, and reading books on my own, they saw that my focus was the same for years, and that I was pushing for results. At some point the relationship with who became my present master was such that it was natural for me to become his apprentice, and keep visiting him everyday to learn.

Many Westerners have this perception that it is very difficult, but this is because most that come to be accepted as apprentice are in Japan for one month on a tourist visa, and pushing to get results before they fly back to their country! This is the exact opposite of how things go in Japan. First settle in Japan, assimilate the language, cutlure and customs, start meeting people in the sword world, make friends, and then things will fall in place naturally, without having to make efforts or push.

View in front of Pierre's smithy

You are a three year apprentice, did you bodge any swords along the way?

Fourth year now. Apprentices don’t make swords. For starters, it is illegal for them to do so (you need the licence to legally make swords in Japan), but even without the licence issue, an apprentice is working on his master’s work.

If, for the sake of simplicity, the making of a sword had ten steps, the apprentice will start by cleaning around, cutting charcoal and observing. Then he will become more involved in preparing the work set-up, and observe closely his master.

Then he will be asked to make step one, and his master will take care of steps two to ten. Then he might be asked to work on step five, not necessarily in order, and so on. The apprentices work on swords, they do every aspect of the work, but they never make a sword by themselves from start to finish, otherwise that’d mean they’re independent swordsmiths!

Have you worked on your own swords, tanto already?

See question above.

If yes, could you share you experience with us? Was it difficult to help / to do everything yourself?

See question above, but yes, it’s very difficult!

Could you show us some of your work?

Wait a few more years

How are you accepted by the japanese smith community? Are they  accepting of a gaijin learning there trade, such a traditionally japanese skill set?

The Japanese are a very welcoming people in general, and most craftsmen are usually lonely, and glad to have visitors. If they can perceive that I am serious, they are very happy that I came to learn one of their traditions. Most never believe that I will ever continue, and people are getting more an more suprised that I am still there after four years. Yet, I don’t think many believe that I will complete my apprenticeship.

In the begining, this was tough, but now it makes me smile and I enjoy showing them that I’m not a quitter. But to answer the questions, Japanese are generally very welcoming, and very generous of their knowledge. Of course, this gets much better when they feel you are making an effort to truly learn their culture, speak their language and study dilligently. They hate those who talk a lot but don’t do much, and so do I.

Just a little note here, there was a big discussion about the word Gaijin vs Gaikokujin

The real word for foreigner is gaikokujin (“outside country person”). Gaijin is a modern contraction of the word, and usually perceived as a bad word to use. It’s not a real word, but by removing the “koku”, it turns the expression into “outsider”, which means a lot in Japan (everything here is about groups, and who’s “uchi”, in the group, and “soto”, and outsider).

In the kanto area, people are timid about using “gaijin” for they think it’s innapropriate and insulting to foreigners. In the kansai area, people are a lot more easygoing, and most are now used to using gaijin as a common word (they use it on TV all the time), and not many people think much of it. I use gaijin now with people I know, and when it’s a formal conversation, I use gaikokujin. If you’re not sure, definitely use gaikokujin: it’s the proper word!

What path lead Pierre to Japan?

Girls!

I always say that…   But throughout my life, I became interested in several things, and only later did I realize they all led to Japan. It started with the sword fencing style in Star Wars (not purely japanese but..), with Luke Skywalker’s clothing (a japanese craftsman’s working “samue”; and, although I don’t fall for it much, Darth Vader’s mask is very much a samurai kabuto!), then martial arts (those I was interested in were japanese), the samurai-geisha themes, temples-in-the-mountains-with-fog, Zen, a common attitude towards work and social relationships that was natural to me, etc.

All this pointed the way to Japan, and once in 2002, I met a japanese girl who never became my girlfriend, but allowed me to come and stay with her family. This was an open door, and I jumped on the occasion to experience daily life here for one year (one month at my friend’s, and the rest on my own). And girls kept me here

Were you a smith before you went to apprentice?

Never ever even got close to a smithy!

Pierre's smithy

Do you study any other Japanese arts? (anything from Ichibana to budo)

I did practice Aikido a lot both in Canada and Japan (and wish I could now, but the nearest dojo is an hour drive and money is scarce). I also enjoy Shakuhachi and the game of Go, although my serious lack of discipline makes me hesitate to say that I “practice”! Otherwise my best affinity with Japan was my attitude towards work: caring for details, quality, working simply to produce masterpieces, working intuitively, being aware of my whole self in the process of creation.. All this is natural in Japan, but raises eyebrows in the West.

What is your favorite style of blade?

I don’t have any favorite style. I have swords that I fall in love with, but no specific style. I do like Sue-Bizen blades (my master’s style) for they were very practical tools, very down to Earth and functional. The great tachi of early Kamakura move me without doubt, too. I also like early Muromachi tanto, the remnants of an era of assassination and self-protection!

Whose blades do you most admire? (other than your sensei’s of course)

My master’s are not those I admire the most! He is very good, actually, but I feel his work is too “new”, too clean. But don’t misunderstand me, his blades are stunning and I respect most of his work very much. If I go back in history, I loved the late Miyairi Yukihira’s work very much, impressive steel.

Then four centuries earlier there was Sukehiro, whose nioi-guchi is just a technical impossibility! Before that Yosozaemon (Sukesada, Sue-Bizen) had impressive work. The great Soshu smiths, of course, are just beyond understanding sometimes (I have Norishige in mind). And the Ko-Bizen smiths’ steel is what moves me the most, right now. I wish I could go back in time for a just a month… just to watch them! I also like Muramasa very much, but saying that in sword circles is like saying “my favorite painter is Picasso”…

It’s too common to be appreciated! But I genuinely like Muramasa. I think he was cool, and he was a free spirit. He tried different things and he was obviously very skilled. I’m talking about the second generation, the best of them.

If you could have any blade out of history to study (for one week), what would it be ?

Ko-Bizen Sadazane (I held it in my hands for half-an-hour once, but that wasn’t enough!). Priced at $200 000.

Do you want to sell your swords in the western world? Or do you  want to ‘come back’ and work as swordsmith?

Yes to both questions. I will always have a foot in Japan, and one in the West. But I’m hoping to build my forge in Canada (at least for now, let’s see what will really happen!)

If you don’t know the type of steel/carbon content you are going to treat with traditional claycoating and water quencing – Do you have any tips on what to do to optain strong hamon and no cracks in a katanalength blade. I realize that you can’t really give any guaranties for succes, but I would like to hear your opinion.

Try, and judge!
I’m sorry, but there’s no way around it. Even for us, the steel we use is always different, so we never know its carbon content or internal structure. We have to test it. Take samples, quench them, write down your datas (temperature by eye, in your own words, time heating, temp of cooling bath, etc). I think, for the sake of practice, you should try heating up only the edge without any clay, and see what happens. When you get something at that, then applying clay will make more sense: you will know why and what you want.

I would like to know more about the L-6 bainite blades. I have read some good things about them but would like to ask someone who knows more about it than me.

Wrong: you know more about it than me!
I don’t know anything about L-6 and I don’t understand bainite enough to even discuss it. It’s very simple: I work only with carbon steel smelted in Japan. I’m isolated from the world and have no clue what is happening “out there”. I am curious, though, and would be glad to learn about whatever’s steel-related! I’m always very thirsty to learn new stuff, and I don’t know anything at all about modern industrial alloys. Nothing. Nothing at all.

I’m like a caveman of metallurgy

More goodies can be found on Pierre’s website

What would you like to ask to Pierre ?

Through a couple of friends, I was able to get in touch with Pierre and was very , very excited about that. To keep things very short, Pierre is a “Western guy” who traveled for the first time to Japan in 2002 and was amazed by the fact that there were still real traditional swordsmiths living and working in Japan.

The very idea of working alone, at peace, retired in a workshop set in the countryside, nearby a fire, with steel only for raw material, doing a work that never ceases to bring renewal and wonder, delighted him very much and In December 2005 he decided to chase his dreams and took of to Japan to start his Smith apprenticeship.

Now, anno 2009, he is still living and studying there and his aim is to become a licensed (westerner) swordsmith in Japan.
To quote Pierre :

“I’m at this point where I have touched everything, tried every technique but haven’t mastered anything! It’s very challenging and stimulating at the same time.”

I’m not sure about you but I’m very curious in such a way of living and Pierre is willing to accept questions and doing an interview..so…
Wondering how it is to chase an living your dream, this is your chance !!

Put your questions (regarding Japanese Swords) in the comment box below, or in the box on the right side of  this video and we make sure they got included in the interview. If there’s enough interest, we might plan to do some other things as well

So what would you like to ask to PIERRE ?