Could this be a fake Japanese Katana ?

Apr 03, 2008 BY admin, LEAVE A COMMENT

tumb.jpgWe do get lot a lot of weird mails in our mailbox and from time to time, there are people who are offering us ‘real antique Japanese swords’. Whenever I see that line in the subject, I already know enough. Normally , I just hit the delete button but this time I decided to see what kind of antique baby they had to offer us …

“Dear Sir,

I live in Balikpapan, East Kalimantan province, Indonesia.
I have original Samurai sword from my fore father who got from Japanese soldier with specification as follows:

1. It is made in 1718, can be seen at the writing on the samurai sword.
2. If we want to take the samurai from its cover, the samurai will sound “srriing” or will sound look like bee.
3. After coming out from the cover, the samurai is still elastic and soon becomes tense.
4. There is a picture of sun shinning and two Japanese flags which cross two each other on the samurai body near samurai holder.
5. The sword can be bent like belt.
6. If we bring “magnet” near and touch the samurai, it doesn’t stick with the samurai.
7. The samurai will not wet even though we pour water on it.
8. There are 3 small swords to complete the samurai.
9. The samurai has certificate written in Japanese language.
10. There is “giok” stone on the samurai holder
11. We have tried to cut nail and the result is the nail is cut on one hit

For the detail, I send file attached.
If you are interested in buying the samurai, please contact me soon by e-mail or my cell phone at +62 xxxxxxxxxx”

Now this is indeed a very special and spiritual sword …

A 290 year old Japanese katana with a flexible blade that doesn’t become wet when water is touching it and it can cut iron…I think we need to call Batman or one of his colleagues here :o

I was to curious about this super sword and replied his mail to ask if I needed to sell our shop here in order to be able to purchase this superhuman katana..

This was his answer :

“hey,
what do you think about the price?
are you serious?
i have new price for you,
Rp.6.000.000.000,00 ( six billion rupiah )”

Now let’s see and take our converter because that are a lot of zero’s there but our converter say’s–> 420 euro (or $650).

Holy crap , that’s so cheap for a super-antique-cutting-iron-sword like that..

Ow, I didn’t showed you the pics yet..hold on !

fake sword 01

03.jpg

bending the super sword

Hurry up because batman and spiderman are highly interested…

So if you need to take advantage of this great offer let me know and I fix it for you !

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  • http://IMDB.COMThensearchforDirtyDenny dirt

    Truelotus,
    I read hulzey’s post again and you are right, he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Myself, I hammer forge my blades, using a forge, anvil, and a hammer. Actually, the process is alot more complicated than that, and there a whole bunch of hand made tools to fit numerous process applications per given blade.
    The “folding process’ is called damascening or pattern welding and that is how you get the wavy pattern on the edge. It has nothing to do with clean steel. A Katana blade starts out as an iron ingot, not steel. Carbon is added during the folding to turn the iron into steel. Flux is also added to each fold to clean the furface impurities to allow the the folds to be hammer welded.
    Truelotus, do yourself a favor and study up on Damascening. There is no way I could cover the process in this post. Damascineing is critical but its only the first step in making a blade.
    I pattern welded a 14 inch (Yankee units) Bowie blade just for the bragging rights, but what a time consuming project. It took forever! The finished blade had all of the little swirls of no particular pattern. It was nice but not worth the time.

  • Truelotus

    @hulzey
    sorry to ask, but what degree do you have and what connection is it with japanese sword making ?
    I am an engineer, and I am familiar with metalurgy … I am also japanese sword enthusiast and kenjutsu practicioner, and I came from Indonesia. To be frank, your statement is misleading … katana does bend … and this is common – this is also why we know about shinae (flaw on blade due to straightening it after bending). And by all means, the so called “super sword” above is FLEXIBLE … do you know what flexible means ? it means it can bend and return to its original state without breaking …

    folding process did not have anything to do with flexibility of the katana. Folding process is indeed to purify the steel itself and we have hada (grain) as by product … the use of soft core and spine is what make katana does not prone to breakage, but NOT making them flexible

    flexibility as in the super sword above is not the case with true katanas … when used in combat or simply doing tameshigiri in wrong ways, katanas may and does bend and it requires special knowledge and proper technique to straighten it up – oh and it means you screwed up the blade … often beyond repair, and bear in mind that once bent, katana CANNOT flex back straight to its straight form without further repair.

    believe me, I have handled this so called super sword and found it was rubbish designed to rip people off …

    last but not least, hulzey … you may have a degree, but you don’t know much about japanese sword, my friend :D

  • Truelotus

    flexible sword is a junk and not japanese … I even made a thread in kaskus (largest indonesian community on the net) battling this stupid belief about flexible sword …

    actually, the so-called flexible sword is made here, locally and can be found in local market selling “antiques” with price ranging from IDR 400,000 ( USD 45 approx) to IDR 1,000,000 (USD 112 approx) and compared to my shinken … it’s a rubbish …

    I have learned about japanese sword for more than 10 years – I am also a kenjutsu practicioner
    so .. though limited, I believe I know better about katana / nihonto / shinken

    I even challenged everyone in my thread to show me proof that japanese troops in WW2 are using such swords, and I will gladly burned all my literature and all of my sword collection, also … shoot it on video and posting it on my thread with deepest apology posted on first page …

    lastly … I have direct experience in handling such “flexible sword” … and found it extremely hilarious … for instance, the handle is screwed (YES, SCREWED) into the fake tsuba … the so-called serial number are etched, and they are using roman number for the “year of made” … not to mention that the blade is made from a cheap metal

    for anyone in Indonesia and would like to check my thread (in bahasa), here it is : http://www.kaskus.us/showthread.php?t=4810293

    feel free to check it out and I am open to any discussion :D

  • Dirt

    In days of old, there was no reason to give a sword a date, it was just a tool. Serial numbers are only used for manufacturing records. The only makers that I know of that did engrave the date on the tang were Japanese.
    I had a so-called expert examine my 450 year old Spanish “dueling dagger”. First, he looked for a makers name and a date. Not finding anything, he said it was a fake, but It sure looked real. Even when I told him it was purchased at Thieves Market in Mexico City, in 1958, he said it was still a fake. It was very real!
    Steel of 150 years ago did not enjoy the carbon consistancy of steel today. The method used to make steel did not evenly distribute the carbon in the molton iron, and it was just an educated guess as to how much carbon to add for a desired hardness. The carbon in the steel is what gives a blade memory (spring steel). The more carbon, the more memory (to a point). The blade was first hardened, then tempered, to allow a blade to will flex a small amount, and return to its original shape. The poor carbon distribution created brittle spots in the blade, and the blade would snap. To anneal the blade spine stopped the breakage, but that’s all it did.
    To consider the good points of a blade that can flex 180 deg, is really mindless, its just a wall-hanger, and dangerous to use. The blade has to be extremely thin so it doesn’t break, and it will flex like a razor blade.
    The “folding process” was originally used to heat iron red hot, sprinkle carbon on it, then fold it over on itself, and hammer the two into one bar. Doing this over and over made the iron into steel, made it harder, made the steel dense, and it dispersed the carbon more evenly. The Katana was built to do one thing, kill people. The blade was stout and dependable. If there is a Katana that can flex, it was probably made in the last 50 years using available heat treated high carbon, thin flatstock. Grind it to shape and it will flex without breaking, but only an idiot would care. Real Katanas were made to not flex, not break, and stay VERY sharp.
    Let’s talk about another idiot that finds cutting nails with a sword, important. 40 years ago, I bought a Samurai at a yard sale. It was a high ticket item until I pulled the blade out. The pimply faced kid said he sharpened the perfect blade on a bench grinder cuz he wanted to chop stuff up. He turned the blade into junk and wanted 5 bucks for it. I gave him a dollar.

  • Danny

    well some katanas are flexible, from the soft spine, i guess, the idea of a sword that strong and stuff sounds like a load of garbage. the only sword i know thats that sharp is Sokka’s ninjato from last airbender, and that was from a meteorite!

  • hulzey

    I was just searching on the net and came across all these published msgs and had to take a look at the sword for myself …….. i currently hold a degree in this field and im sorry nitebaron …. u may be japanese but from what ur writing u have no idea about ur history …… and yes some katanas do actually bend that way …. it all depends on how many times it has been folded over and what kinda of steel ….. if u look on the internet there is currently 1700 types of steel and 900 of those were available in that era and 212 of those types of steel can be folded 300 times over and still bend like that ….. im greek but do i know zues personaly …. his he real i dunno …… if i was going to be attacked by some one i would rather have a katana that could bend that way bc it is more effective defense ….. if its real ?? possibly but i would have to see it befor making that assumption ….. sorry

  • Nightbaron

    Simple…
    1. japanese dont use roman numerical in the 16th century (or whatever ye olde years these kindda junk usually have… I wonder if any have something like 250 BC stamped on it… That would be funky)

    2. Go to japan and check out the sword museum or for god sakes do some cheap free research on the net… And see if theres ANY flexible sword existed in japan on whatever era, And start to wonder HARD why these kindda super sword only existed in Indonesia and Philippines.

    3. Samurai aint indiana jones… They dont whips arounds.

    4. Im japanese :) .. nuff said.

  • uli

    well..well..well…please somebody tell again about this sword..explain again that the sword fake or not. what its sign if the sword fake and what its sign if that genuiness.
    and case close.

  • shane

    Hi there. i also have same kind of sword. dated 1516 with a serial number below the date. total length is 1.4 m, blade length is 1.1 meters flexibe in leather case. two handed wooden handle, has other short blade, total length is .75meters. third blade is missing. . have shown this sword to a priest in bali and he says that yes it has history of violence and so on. is probable that these are not genuine as they keep poping up everywhere but are still kind of cool. the cheap knock off swords in indonesia are just that, cheap. poorly made and for the tourist trade. Ahh as for the conversion rate, 1million rupah is aprox 100 usd. i would like to find out if my sword is an orignal then perhaps pass it on to a museum, have had many people wanting to take it as part of a collection but no one has ever offord me any money for it . to use this sword as a weppon would be very effective even in the hands of an amature like me

  • James

    haha…if i had it…the other person wouldnt need to block it…..id be to busy trying to keep from messing myself up…ha

    on a more serious note….how the heck were these things used anyways?

  • Borathian

    Japanese swords use differentialy hardened making it impossible for them to bend as depicted in the photos without either braking in most cases or retaining the bend if you could actually get one to bend which is extremely improbable, also I have never seen a Japanese sword with etching down the length of the blade, and in all honesty I don’t know why you would ever want to as it would destroy the simply elegance of the sword.

    I’m almost 100% certain that it’s Indian considering the gaudy blade engravings, and the fact that Chinese swords with flexible blades don’t usually have a strait edge like the one depicted.

  • Jasper

    Try to block a sword attack with that “flexible” thing.
    :)

  • http://www.fantasycastle.com/cgi-bin/Chat/usrcnt.cgi Lazarus

    It’s now for sell on eBay! Just $7,777.00 starting bid!
    *LOL*

  • admin

    There are a lot of swords out there that can cut nails and other hard targets..but this is just not a katana…

    And the price…i can buy a few very very expensive nihonto for that amount :o

    Dave

  • Jhony

    I have checked almost all reference about Japanese Sword that i can found and NONE of them shown such sword.

    Yep , i have seen this kind of sword in Medan, North Sumatera, really can cut nail!!!
    If you come to Medan , email me ( get it from Admin ) , i know the owner.

    About the price, USD 650000, i agree it`s insane, and i don`t think this is a Japanese Sword.

    You can build a medium scale factory with that money in Indonesia !!!

    Anybody know, which reference shown this kind of sword ? ( Maybe i`ll consider buying this Sword :) )

  • Don

    This is laughable and so beyond bogus as barely worth commenting on. This is not a Japanese blade in any way, shape or form and anyone here who says otherwise doesnt know anything about nihonto and is either a fool or trying to rip somebody off.
    This is the same as teh clowns on Ebay who try to rip off people with bogus chinese made ‘antiques’.
    We have actually discussed these BS flexible swords on the nihonto forums and are amazed at the gullibility of some people.

  • Johan

    By the way, I wonder how the seller could come up the year 1718 on that sword? weird

  • Johan

    Well,this could be fake.The cettificate is definitely a FAKE. Japanese swordmakers did not do certificate.

    But I wonder if lets say give 2 cents worth of what the guy is trying to offer.
    just maybe just maybe, they are indeed antiques, but has no real value to the point of robbing people in broad day light.

    Could they be antiques sword of inhabitants of the former Lan Fang republic, during the 18th century? Back then the Chinese formed a small state based on simple democratic election , they managed to form a small army to maintain their existence before before destroyed by the Dutch.

    I saw simple Chinese Jian in the background and the Chinese also made flexible sword back then.
    The guy mentioned “giok” stone , that is jade in Bahasa. Japanese did not put jade for certain in their sword, why would they ???? Though the Japanese may appreciate Jade but putting on sword is not in their culture as far as I know.
    The kisaki on the sword is not Japanese style either.
    The Japanese influence on that sword are understandable because many Chinese in Kalimantan back then might have or had involved previous in Japanese piracy in Southern China coast as far as Thailand. In fact,
    These Chinese might perhaps escaped to Kalimantan to become farmers, mine workers and landlords.
    If I was not wrong , the Dutch employed Some Japanese mercernaries in the Island of Banda in Southern part of Indonesia to fight the natives.So Japanese influence is still possible.
    Again,this is a 2 cents worth of comments, not implying in anyway that these articles are genuine.

    Regards

    Johan

  • admin

    Hey Budhis,

    Is there any way you can prove that it’s real ? I mean, a flexible katana..I never heard of that :o

  • Budhis

    Dear,

    I got a pair of that sword..it’s real

  • Roland

    FAKE!!!!!!! (made in China or India)

  • admin

    Hey Endro,

    The thing is that we got several mails last month about this kind of sword, perhaps it is somebody else..We’ve got another one again this week..Same sword, almost the same description,etc..

    Perhaps this sword is “real” but defenitely not a Japanese sword and the price they do offer is just insane..

    I don’t want anything my friend, just tell people they need to watch out for people selling ‘real antique japanese swords’, nothing else..

    You’re intensions may be good but this is just no Japanese sword. If you want to discuss this matter, feel free to write something more about it.

  • http://www.endro-web.cn Endro

    I have just seen your blog, and i am very surprised to see my email publised in your way.
    If you are not interested in my offer or information that’s OK.
    You believe it or not, I’m trying to tell the facts about the sword.
    If you don’t believe,it doesn’t mean that you can create sentences that seem we had dialogue about price. I never received any respond from you and even told the price yet.
    Some pics even are not included in my email. Only one pic is from me,that is picture of sword bent like a belt and the hands of person can be seen.
    May I know, why did you do that?
    What do you want actually?

    Endro
    endro_mx[at]yahoo[dot]co[dot]id

  • Elisa

    I think your converting of rupiah into to dollars is seriously wrong!
    It actually works out to around $650,000USD.
    And your may be really wrong could it really could be an original coz I live in Jakarta and know other people who have sold very similar swords left here after the Japanese came here for war which were original……

  • Garrett

    I might be interested, but I would need some more information such as length, weight, and shipping cost.

  • Leonardo Silva

    Nah… But if the blade WAS 12 feet long I might have thought about it…;)

  • admin

    Thxs Leonardo..so you’re intrested :o

  • Leonardo Silva

    My brother just told me that it looks like an Urumi, A southern Indian weapon from Karalipayatu.

    The sword is reminescent of a weapon from the Rurouni Kenshin anime.

    It the blade was 12 feet long….