Comments on: Could this be a fake Japanese Katana ?

By: Carl

Carl — Wed, 24 Oct 2012 00:29:00 +0000

Wait a sec. I live in Indonesia.
Rp. 6,000,000,000 is like $600,000, not $600

By: dirt

dirt — Sat, 02 Apr 2011 07:52:49 +0000

Truelotus,
I read hulzey’s post again and you are right, he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Myself, I hammer forge my blades, using a forge, anvil, and a hammer. Actually, the process is alot more complicated than that, and there a whole bunch of hand made tools to fit numerous process applications per given blade.
The “folding process’ is called damascening or pattern welding and that is how you get the wavy pattern on the edge. It has nothing to do with clean steel. A Katana blade starts out as an iron ingot, not steel. Carbon is added during the folding to turn the iron into steel. Flux is also added to each fold to clean the furface impurities to allow the the folds to be hammer welded.
Truelotus, do yourself a favor and study up on Damascening. There is no way I could cover the process in this post. Damascineing is critical but its only the first step in making a blade.
I pattern welded a 14 inch (Yankee units) Bowie blade just for the bragging rights, but what a time consuming project. It took forever! The finished blade had all of the little swirls of no particular pattern. It was nice but not worth the time.

By: Truelotus

Truelotus — Wed, 16 Mar 2011 09:19:03 +0000

@hulzey
sorry to ask, but what degree do you have and what connection is it with japanese sword making ?
I am an engineer, and I am familiar with metalurgy … I am also japanese sword enthusiast and kenjutsu practicioner, and I came from Indonesia. To be frank, your statement is misleading … katana does bend … and this is common – this is also why we know about shinae (flaw on blade due to straightening it after bending). And by all means, the so called “super sword” above is FLEXIBLE … do you know what flexible means ? it means it can bend and return to its original state without breaking …

folding process did not have anything to do with flexibility of the katana. Folding process is indeed to purify the steel itself and we have hada (grain) as by product … the use of soft core and spine is what make katana does not prone to breakage, but NOT making them flexible

flexibility as in the super sword above is not the case with true katanas … when used in combat or simply doing tameshigiri in wrong ways, katanas may and does bend and it requires special knowledge and proper technique to straighten it up – oh and it means you screwed up the blade … often beyond repair, and bear in mind that once bent, katana CANNOT flex back straight to its straight form without further repair.

believe me, I have handled this so called super sword and found it was rubbish designed to rip people off …

last but not least, hulzey … you may have a degree, but you don’t know much about japanese sword, my friend

By: Truelotus

Truelotus — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 05:02:23 +0000

flexible sword is a junk and not japanese … I even made a thread in kaskus (largest indonesian community on the net) battling this stupid belief about flexible sword …

actually, the so-called flexible sword is made here, locally and can be found in local market selling “antiques” with price ranging from IDR 400,000 ( USD 45 approx) to IDR 1,000,000 (USD 112 approx) and compared to my shinken … it’s a rubbish …

I have learned about japanese sword for more than 10 years – I am also a kenjutsu practicioner
so .. though limited, I believe I know better about katana / nihonto / shinken

I even challenged everyone in my thread to show me proof that japanese troops in WW2 are using such swords, and I will gladly burned all my literature and all of my sword collection, also … shoot it on video and posting it on my thread with deepest apology posted on first page …

lastly … I have direct experience in handling such “flexible sword” … and found it extremely hilarious … for instance, the handle is screwed (YES, SCREWED) into the fake tsuba … the so-called serial number are etched, and they are using roman number for the “year of made” … not to mention that the blade is made from a cheap metal

for anyone in Indonesia and would like to check my thread (in bahasa), here it is : http://www.kaskus.us/showthread.php?t=4810293

feel free to check it out and I am open to any discussion

By: Dirt

Dirt — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 00:40:41 +0000

In days of old, there was no reason to give a sword a date, it was just a tool. Serial numbers are only used for manufacturing records. The only makers that I know of that did engrave the date on the tang were Japanese.
I had a so-called expert examine my 450 year old Spanish “dueling dagger”. First, he looked for a makers name and a date. Not finding anything, he said it was a fake, but It sure looked real. Even when I told him it was purchased at Thieves Market in Mexico City, in 1958, he said it was still a fake. It was very real!
Steel of 150 years ago did not enjoy the carbon consistancy of steel today. The method used to make steel did not evenly distribute the carbon in the molton iron, and it was just an educated guess as to how much carbon to add for a desired hardness. The carbon in the steel is what gives a blade memory (spring steel). The more carbon, the more memory (to a point). The blade was first hardened, then tempered, to allow a blade to will flex a small amount, and return to its original shape. The poor carbon distribution created brittle spots in the blade, and the blade would snap. To anneal the blade spine stopped the breakage, but that’s all it did.
To consider the good points of a blade that can flex 180 deg, is really mindless, its just a wall-hanger, and dangerous to use. The blade has to be extremely thin so it doesn’t break, and it will flex like a razor blade.
The “folding process” was originally used to heat iron red hot, sprinkle carbon on it, then fold it over on itself, and hammer the two into one bar. Doing this over and over made the iron into steel, made it harder, made the steel dense, and it dispersed the carbon more evenly. The Katana was built to do one thing, kill people. The blade was stout and dependable. If there is a Katana that can flex, it was probably made in the last 50 years using available heat treated high carbon, thin flatstock. Grind it to shape and it will flex without breaking, but only an idiot would care. Real Katanas were made to not flex, not break, and stay VERY sharp.
Let’s talk about another idiot that finds cutting nails with a sword, important. 40 years ago, I bought a Samurai at a yard sale. It was a high ticket item until I pulled the blade out. The pimply faced kid said he sharpened the perfect blade on a bench grinder cuz he wanted to chop stuff up. He turned the blade into junk and wanted 5 bucks for it. I gave him a dollar.

By: Danny

Danny — Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:02:50 +0000

well some katanas are flexible, from the soft spine, i guess, the idea of a sword that strong and stuff sounds like a load of garbage. the only sword i know thats that sharp is Sokka’s ninjato from last airbender, and that was from a meteorite!

By: hulzey

hulzey — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 00:15:54 +0000

I was just searching on the net and came across all these published msgs and had to take a look at the sword for myself …….. i currently hold a degree in this field and im sorry nitebaron …. u may be japanese but from what ur writing u have no idea about ur history …… and yes some katanas do actually bend that way …. it all depends on how many times it has been folded over and what kinda of steel ….. if u look on the internet there is currently 1700 types of steel and 900 of those were available in that era and 212 of those types of steel can be folded 300 times over and still bend like that ….. im greek but do i know zues personaly …. his he real i dunno …… if i was going to be attacked by some one i would rather have a katana that could bend that way bc it is more effective defense ….. if its real ?? possibly but i would have to see it befor making that assumption ….. sorry

By: Nightbaron

Nightbaron — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 22:31:07 +0000

Simple…
1. japanese dont use roman numerical in the 16th century (or whatever ye olde years these kindda junk usually have… I wonder if any have something like 250 BC stamped on it… That would be funky)

2. Go to japan and check out the sword museum or for god sakes do some cheap free research on the net… And see if theres ANY flexible sword existed in japan on whatever era, And start to wonder HARD why these kindda super sword only existed in Indonesia and Philippines.

3. Samurai aint indiana jones… They dont whips arounds.

4. Im japanese .. nuff said.

By: uli

uli — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 12:42:43 +0000

well..well..well…please somebody tell again about this sword..explain again that the sword fake or not. what its sign if the sword fake and what its sign if that genuiness.
and case close.

By: shane

shane — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 06:47:40 +0000

Hi there. i also have same kind of sword. dated 1516 with a serial number below the date. total length is 1.4 m, blade length is 1.1 meters flexibe in leather case. two handed wooden handle, has other short blade, total length is .75meters. third blade is missing. . have shown this sword to a priest in bali and he says that yes it has history of violence and so on. is probable that these are not genuine as they keep poping up everywhere but are still kind of cool. the cheap knock off swords in indonesia are just that, cheap. poorly made and for the tourist trade. Ahh as for the conversion rate, 1million rupah is aprox 100 usd. i would like to find out if my sword is an orignal then perhaps pass it on to a museum, have had many people wanting to take it as part of a collection but no one has ever offord me any money for it . to use this sword as a weppon would be very effective even in the hands of an amature like me